Is pirating stealing? - Page 3

adelord · 02-06-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverback

and, just fyi, art has NEVER been "free." you think bernoulli gave his shit away? come on, thats just bullshit. art has value because someone in the market wants.

"Art" predates both "markets" and "money"

no bullshit.

Quote:

when you dl software you are stealing. i really can't believe its even a debate.

I also can't believe that this is debated. Is your disbelief due to the violation of statute component (which can be assumed since we all have respect for our system of laws and the potential risk of fines up to US$250,000 and prison terms of up to 5 years for the illegal distribution of software) or do you also have an additional moral objection against making a digital copy of a digital file?

~~~

Quote:

Artificial scarcity describes the scarcity of items even though the technology and production capacity exists to create an abundance. The term is aptly applied to non-rival resources, i.e. those that do not diminish due to one person's use, although there are other resources which could be categorized as artificially scarce. The most common causes are monopoly pricing structures, such as those enabled by intellectual property rights or by high fixed costs in a particular marketplace. The inefficiency associated with artificial scarcity is formally known as a deadweight loss.

An example of artificial scarcity is often used when describing proprietary, or closed-source, computer software. Any software application can be easily duplicated billions of times over for a relatively cheap production price (an initial investment in a computer, an internet connection, and any power consumption costs; and these are already fixed costs in most environments). On the margin, the price of copying software is next to nothing, costing only a small amount of power and a fraction of a second. Things like serial numbers, license agreements, and intellectual property create artificial scarcity, and give monetary value to otherwise free copies. Technocrats argue that if the the price system were removed, there would be no personal incentive to artificially create scarcity in products, and thus something similar to the open source model of distribution would dominate.

With nearly all goods, a trade-off occurs when decisions are made about production. The graph shows the economic anomaly that occurs with artificially scarce products. Because leather boots consume resources, a trade-off is noticed between running shoes and boots; i.e. in order to produce more boots one has to produce fewer running shoes because of limited resources.

With computer software, no significant trade-off occurs. To produce more of a certain piece of digital information, since virtually no resources are used to copy the information there is no trade-off with the production of other things, like shoes and boots. In essence, problems of artificial scarcity usually arise when a good that was once scarce becomes abundant due to extreme increases in productivity and technology.

Quote:

Traditionally, creators have used (and continue to use) raw materials to instantiate their works: a painter might use oil and canvas, a sculptor might work in clay, an architect might draft designs in pen and ink. Such work would result in a single copy (or "matrix"). While mass reproduction of such works ("impressions") — by processes such as printmaking or photocopying — is possible and common, such reproduction still incurs appreciable costs (for example for the paper used, and for the physical distribution of the copy).
Where the artefact can be captured digitally, copies have minimal reproduction costs. The same painter could create an original work with graphics software; the sculptor might use rapid prototyping; the architect CAD/CAM tools. Most of the "cost" in such works is in paying for the original design and development — for the creators' expertise and for their tools (though these also do not wear out the same way physical tools do). While the creators of such works must still labor to create the design matrix, there are virtually no raw-materials required to recreate the work once completed.
This negligible-cost reproduction raises the question, "How much should one pay for something that can be copied near-indefinitely at minimal expense?" Does a purchaser have the right to reproduce their own copy as much as they can afford to? Some people believe the purchaser does not or should not have any rights to copy or transfer ownership, and use Digital Rights Management to try to enforce this view. Others instead feel that information should be freely distributed (see copyleft), and that DRM measures are attempts to restore prior business models' viability by inducing artificial scarcity.

Post scarcity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

This diagram by artist Wendy D. Bateman is an excellent illustration of why the downloading of music and other media from the Internet is not an act of the same status as the theft of tangible property. Tangible property, when it is taken, is no longer in possession of its owner, who can no longer use it. When a work of digital media is copied, however, it does not diminish anyone else’s possession of the copies already in existence. Those individual copies still belong to their owners, who can do with them what they please. Intellectual property laws create artificial scarcity by restricting individuals’ ability to copy works that are freely reproducible due to their technical properties. Feel free to copy and distribute this visual aid as you see fit.

?Piracy is Not Theft? by Wendy D. Bateman ? The Rational Argumentator - The Progress of Liberty

BUT

his story: Why I’m Done Making Desktop Applications: MicroISV on a Shoestring -- as a small & independent software producer he appears to have found solutions (abandoning desktop apps for web-based subscriptions) that will work for him. All of the software I use at work is paid on a per seat annual subscription basis.

*the wolf* · 02-06-2010

Back in the day I used to just stick a blank tape in and record off the radio. No one really called that stealing of piracy

adelord · 02-06-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by the wolf

Back in the day I used to just stick a blank tape in and record off the radio. No one really called that stealing of piracy

I wonder how Phish ever made a living when their fans were incredibly committed to pirating and sharing their music...

**Dook** · 02-06-2010

whatever helps you sleep at night, thief.

*the wolf* · 02-06-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by adelord

I wonder how Phish ever made a living when their fans were incredibly committed to pirating and sharing their music...

hippies don't need money

one_left · 02-06-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by adelord

I wonder how Phish ever made a living when their fans were incredibly committed to pirating and sharing their music...

one word....touring

primalraver · 02-06-2010

its only stealing if u in a boat

Trancehed · 02-06-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thadeau

this is the kind of law that is impossible to enforce because you cant control personal interaction unless government somehow became omnipresent in our lives. so they try to sway public opinion in order to squash the movement.
the concept of intellectual property is hurting humanity just as much as it is helping. in the internet we have instant knowledge. a place that has become a nexus where any human mind can plug into, and come away with knowledge. a central nexus of the human mind. most intellectual property is knowledge, something that cant be wrapped up and put in a box to be sold at the store(it can like a box of software or a cd, but it isnt going to stay there, it can be copied and redistributed, with no way to control where it goes and doesnt).
the idea of making money off of something that cannot be controlled is ridiculous, just like selling water.......
like saying anybody who buys a chicken has to pay for their eggs, or pay for any baby chickens that chicken might have(gotta protect those chicken breeders from going out of busniess you know....).
it all comes back to legal definition, and the past trying to control the future. intellectual property laws are a big reason for many of our societal problems right now.
watch rip-a remix manifesto.
we are coming into a great corporate age where legalese will change again. when stealing will mean "thinking about a big mac without buying one".

Rip is a great documentary ...

Trancehed · 02-06-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by adelord

LOL at the piracy is not theft image. Sums it up pretty well.

Dictator Bob · 02-06-2010

Adelord in with a bitchslap! Holy fuck, artificial scarcity and everything lol !

**Dook** · 02-06-2010

I have no moral objection to stealing.

you guys do.

I'm surprised you hippies don't work for free.

Psilo · 02-07-2010

Seriously, who the fuck cares about stealing.

Pride is something you should hold in high regard when youre 12 years old. You should know how the world works by now.

If someone wants to make music, they should do it out of love. If they cant make money off of it, find a real job and make music on the side.

Cause im stealing that shit and so are millions of others. No wait, billions.
So find a new way and quit bitching about what Im doing.

Richie · 02-07-2010

I have some demonoid invitations if anyone needs them ahahahaah

kellen · 02-07-2010

I'll touch on the issue of music piracy and say that I'll stop pirating music when the compensation structures are completely re-done in the record industry and the majority of the proceeds from the sale of a CD go to the artists and not the greedy record executives. Major record labels are full of greedy pigs who are just looking to exploit their next new sensation so they can fatten their wallets. Record execs are (IMO) one of the main reasons why people keep saying that major market music is going downhill in quality.

As it is right now bands and artists can still profit from touring and the related ticket and merchandise sales, but the whole profit structure on the sale of the actual music is so retardedly structured that I really wonder why more artists haven't spoken up.

Yeah I pirate music (mostly mainstream stuff, EDM stuff I end up buying because I want good quality for playing out with), but I also go out and see artists live and support them that way. The record execs can bitch about piracy all they want, all they're really trying to do is protect their own pocketbooks and financial gain.

Trancehed · 02-07-2010

I should say too it's not about being a cheap skate for me. I pay PLENTY for entertainment. I own 2 game systems, I buy video games and play rented ones (dave has a gamefly account). I pay monthly for Blockbuster online (for bluray movies), I go to the movies frequently (mostly for 3d and/or IMAX), pay for LIVE entertainment (raves, clubs, etc). I pay for satellite radio and TV. I pay for apps and games on my cell phone. Basically I pay for entertainment that I feel is worthy of my money.

*DEVICE* · 02-07-2010

I am most ill and I'm rhyming and stealing.

*donnieisdarko* · 02-07-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEVICE

I am most ill and I'm rhyming and stealing.

im rhyming, hair styling, dirrrrty wobble slimey grimey

Becky · 02-07-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by the wolf

hippies don't need money

like your daddy...

*donnieisdarko* · 02-07-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Becky

like your daddy...

bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaaaaaaaa!

**Dook** · 02-08-2010

So the hardware needed to play your stolen music is worth the money, but the actual media isn't?

Yeah, Record execs and distribution centers do take their cut, but they do have a job, and unlike yourselves, think they should be compensated. Producing, housing, and distributing said media costs money, a lot of it. Data Center space and Internet connections are not free. I'm sure artists would like to get more, but without the backing of a major record label, your band is going nowhere.

Also, when you steal music, you are guaranteeing that the artist gets absolutely nothing for the music, so you are stealing from them as well.

To determine if you're stealing:

Is it available for purchase? Did you pay for it?

If your answers go "Yes" then "No" then you are a thief.

**Agent-006** · 02-08-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dook

To determine if you're stealing:

Is it available for purchase? Did you pay for it?

If your answers go "Yes" then "No" then you are a thief.

How about a No, No.....No Avatar is Not available for Purchase, and yeah I did pay for it...so that'll be a No yes...fuuuuuuuuck

*DEVICE* · 02-08-2010

i down load shit nowadays. but the GOOD stuff gets replaced with wavs. i like this method i use for finding new tunes now cause i can test tunes in contrast to the rest of my collection. if i like the track and i want it in my song repertoire i buy a wav and convert it to flac for storage and tagging reasons.

and yes if an artist does not release his or her work into public domain and you own a copy of said tune and did not pay for it you have ripped the artist off. sure you did not steal a material object from any one but you have not compensated the artist for their work and thus decreased the total profit that could have been made buy sales of the tune.

removing the chance to make money might not look bad to you but imagine if i showed up to your place of work and would not let you in your building thus removing the chance to earn money. its not stealing but you are suffering from my actions.

silverback · 02-08-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by adelord

"Art" predates both "markets" and "money"

no bullshit.

I also can't believe that this is debated. Is your disbelief due to the violation of statute component (which can be assumed since we all have respect for our system of laws and the potential risk of fines up to US$250,000 and prison terms of up to 5 years for the illegal distribution of software) or do you also have an additional moral objection against making a digital copy of a digital file?

~~~

Post scarcity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

?Piracy is Not Theft? by Wendy D. Bateman ? The Rational Argumentator - The Progress of Liberty

BUT

his story: Why I’m Done Making Desktop Applications: MicroISV on a Shoestring -- as a small & independent software producer he appears to have found solutions (abandoning desktop apps for web-based subscriptions) that will work for him. All of the software I use at work is paid on a per seat annual subscription basis.

so what? no body is required to give the product of their labor away for free, nor produce so much of it that the marginal cost becomes zero. boohoo, software producers want to make money, too. seriously? ...and so fucking what that "art" predates "money" ...you have to go back 5000 years for that statement to be true. artists deserve to be paid. so what if the total cost of materials is pennies, the value of time and effort is often worthy of the highest price tags.

like tony said, this isnt a "moral" arguement, its a legal one. ...and like dook said, if its for sale, and you dont buy it, youve stolen it. and like devise said, even if its not for sale, if you obtained other than with the consent of the creator/owner, then you stole it. ...even more to the point, someone does benefit when software/songs.whatever is downloaded for free other than the person who deserves compensation. its no different than going to the movies, recording it on a camcorder then selling copies on the street...

Trancehed · 02-08-2010

Artists and actors are suffering SOOOOO much I know. I should feel bad for them.

silverback · 02-08-2010

thats a moral judgment. i thought this wast a moral thing.

*ananda* · 02-08-2010

this makes me think of an interesting story i heard in class the other day. one of my business teachers used to work for prince. prince was getting pretty tired of producing cds for his record company since he was only getting like $0.70 per $17 cd. the record companies can get away with this as it supposedly covers their distribution expense.

so the next time prince went on tour he bought a couple hundred thousand of his own cds. he then raised the ticket prices $10 and gave away a "free" cd with each ticket. that whole $10 went in his pocket and bam his cd was on the top 40 list all without a single retail store being involved. he provided his own distribution.

tony i know this doesn't really answer your question but i think it illustrates a point that in most cases we're paying double digits for music or software that probably only cost a few cents to produce. Such a small portion actually makes it to the artist and yet they're often millionaires. what i think we need to be asking ourselves is what we feel is an allowable profit margin. and what kind of margins are just "criminal". (bad pun i know)

Most of us are lucky to get 2% on a savings account but record companies are most likely making 2000% per cd. that just doesn't feel right to me.

Dictator Bob · 02-08-2010

Remove morality and it's a question of legality and semantics. I tend to look towards semantics since that is what can be used to weigh the merit of the validity of a law. People are now born into a society with the ability to share works of art seamlessly. That is a fact of life. Just as everyone can draw on a piece of paper and pass it around, we can do the same with bits and bytes. I would prefer the discussions focused on how we can compensate and reward as oppose to methods of protection or right of ownership. Does the creator of art have a property right to that art? Absolutely, there shouldn't be question here. But I have every right to whistle a tune or sing a song, no matter who was the original creator.

Where the lines are defined is what truly matters. And what is at stake here is a lot more than simple concepts of ownership. Unless someone has missed that the US government has acted as an agent of RIAA/MPAA against college kids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adelord

"Art" predates both "markets" and "money"

no bullshit.

If you perceive markets as people actively exchanging then markets existed at the same time as the first art!

adelord · 02-08-2010

if the economic war of the last century was capitalism vs. communism, then I expect the economic war of the next century to be global corporations vs. global citizens.

the large music corporations and their distribution channels are no longer necessary or worth the cost to many artists, and they often never were.

DIY for the win, as always.

Dictator Bob · 02-08-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by adelord

global corporations vs. global citizens

Both concepts lead to the same path. I would say it's power vs. people, and bring it to the local and individual level.

adelord · 02-09-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dictator Bob

Both concepts lead to the same path. I would say it's power vs. people, and bring it to the local and individual level.

Truth! -- but I see the corporation as the major vehicle for concentrating wealth and power, and insulating those in power from being held responsible for the effects of their wealth, as well as coercing their employees (including upper management) into committing immoral acts in the name of building shareholder value. I can't believe the slippery slope that the interpretation of the Commerce Clause has fallen down over the last 5 generations.

You know those Tea Party people? You and I might agree with them that devolution of power from the Federal to the State and from the State to the Local level of government is a good idea. Coordinating and cooperating with them is neigh-impossible so far in my experience. Are you any good at talking to them? Sadly I haven't had much success. I keep trying though.

Taking power from the Federal level of government and returning it to the State level where it belongs is a very difficult and important thing for our generation to accomplish. It will require us to develop tolerance of people whose ideology we do not agree with in order to accomplish common goals.

...which will never happen. Such is life.

have you checked out The Political Compass recently?

Thadeau · 02-09-2010

this is a great conversation. I actually learned something on sdr......

silverback · 02-09-2010

after reading this thread, ive decided to stop paying for cable and just tap into my neighbors line instead. i mean, its not like its stealing, so it should be fine.

Trancehed · 02-09-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverback

after reading this thread, ive decided to stop paying for cable and just tap into my neighbors line instead. i mean, its not like its stealing, so it should be fine.

My parents used to steal cable when I was little. Maybe that's where I get it from

Dictator Bob · 02-09-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverback

after reading this thread, ive decided to stop paying for cable and just tap into my neighbors line instead. i mean, its not like its stealing, so it should be fine.

Fallacy: Straw Man

Dictator Bob · 02-09-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by adelord

Truth! -- but I see the corporation as the major vehicle for concentrating wealth and power

Yes, that is exactly what a corporation is. And there is nothing wrong with that inherently. The real problem arises when the corporate and state forces collude to limit choices people make. I would challenge you to look at it from that angle.

I was an original to the tea party, when it was the libertarian's movement. It has now been subverted by special interests and the neocons are working swiftly to integrate their platforms. I give it a year before the large portion of truly educated libertarian's move away from it. Maybe two. I hope I'm wrong. I also swing "left libertarian" towards chomskyites but I am at times a rabid rothbardian.

Trancehed · 02-09-2010

The thing I hate about the tea party.. is they are trying to relate the current situation to the boston tea party. When, in fact, it is nothing like that. The original tea party was about no taxation without representation. You had England taxing the states, and giving them NOTHING for that. I don't really see the relation personally. We ARE getting things out of our taxes. AND we have lots of representation. Are we paying too much in taxes? Probably. Is our government spending our money in the best possible way? Probably not. But I still think it's the best country in the world. Or at least in the top 3. I mean, it's nowhere near perfect. And there's things I absolutely hate about it. But I can deal. I enjoy my way of life.

*donnieisdarko* · 02-09-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trancehed

I enjoy my way of life.

Dictator Bob · 02-09-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trancehed

The thing I hate about the tea party.. is they are trying to relate the current situation to the boston tea party. When, in fact, it is nothing like that. The original tea party was about no taxation without representation. You had England taxing the states, and giving them NOTHING for that. I don't really see the relation personally. We ARE getting things out of our taxes. AND we have lots of representation. Are we paying too much in taxes? Probably. Is our government spending our money in the best possible way? Probably not. But I still think it's the best country in the world. Or at least in the top 3. I mean, it's nowhere near perfect. And there's things I absolutely hate about it. But I can deal. I enjoy my way of life.

`

You are correct, people are not showing up naked in warpaint for the most part. But unreported in between the claims of racism (fuck tancredo) are the legions of progressives attending in open rebellion against the so-often-mislabeled progressive wing of the democratic party. As for representation, I suppose that depends on how you view representation. I do not feel I am represented, I feel Monsanto is very well represented. As for the "way of life", sit idly bye and you get to watch it change.

What are we getting out of our taxes? Bridges falling apart, shit schools, dependency on welfare, and war ... ? Where's the delivery? Central food processing and regulatory systems designed to favor corporate bodies that can withstand the load? Credits and favors that allow massive polluting of the air and water supplies? A slowly degrading standard of living masked by inflation? An increasingly belligerent paramilitary system that answers to the central government agencies and not to the local population? I'm not sure what the state is delivering for you that makes you such an avid supporter of their activities.

Centralization sucks. But we've had this discussion already. :-/

silverback · 02-09-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dictator Bob

Fallacy: Straw Man

its the exact same thing, cept one uses a computer and one uses a screw driver. there is no difference.

Trancehed · 02-09-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dictator Bob

`

You are correct, people are not showing up naked in warpaint for the most part. But unreported in between the claims of racism (fuck tancredo) are the legions of progressives attending in open rebellion against the so-often-mislabeled progressive wing of the democratic party. As for representation, I suppose that depends on how you view representation. I do not feel I am represented, I feel Monsanto is very well represented. As for the "way of life", sit idly bye and you get to watch it change.

What are we getting out of our taxes? Bridges falling apart, shit schools, dependency on welfare, and war ... ? Where's the delivery? Central food processing and regulatory systems designed to favor corporate bodies that can withstand the load? Credits and favors that allow massive polluting of the air and water supplies? A slowly degrading standard of living masked by inflation? An increasingly belligerent paramilitary system that answers to the central government agencies and not to the local population? I'm not sure what the state is delivering for you that makes you such an avid supporter of their activities.

Centralization sucks. But we've had this discussion already. :-/

No matter how you look at it.. you get to vote for your REPRESENTATIVES, and you receive services for the taxes you pay. I'm not even saying some of the tea party doesn't have some good points. But stop calling it the damn tea party.

Anyway.. back on topic..

Dictator Bob · 02-09-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverback

its the exact same thing, cept one uses a computer and one uses a screw driver. there is no difference.

yeahhhhh lolol

********************************

Piracy is under our current system theft. It's not a question of whether or not we have the ability to "share" or copy a specific medium. It is a question of ownership that we must address. Those who put their efforts into the creation of a material, structure, or product are the creators of property. Even in the earliest foundations of our republic the right of ownership of an idea, an intellectual property, was recognized.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Article I, section 8, the U.S. Constitution

Congress shall have power . . . To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.

The reasoning for this and morality behind the idea that a patent or a the ownership of an intellectual work was not complex. Simply put: in order to foster the creative energy of a free people we must have a basic protection of the works of those people; an intellectual creation by an individual should be considered that individual's property.

The modern interpretation of this is the system of copyright. It was recognized early on that a limitation should be placed on the ownership of a medium, so as to prevent a strangling force on societies culture. Imagine if the wheel was permanently patented, or in more modern relation Greensleeves could not be sung without license. Any idea in it's inception that has a certain part of heritage should be of public domain. And the arguments around copyright, patent, or intellectual property law probably should focus more on these concepts than on the concepts of actual ownership rights.

Ultimately, when a piece of intellectual property is created there is an investment of materials made. Whether or not it is virtually created and resting on the ether of cyberspace or is a material possession. An artist uses his or her mind, and brings forth a song or tune with their time. Time being our most valuable commodity it must be recognized as a component of property. If we invest our time, labor, or effort into the creation of an idea then just as we do the same for a material possession then that idea must be recognized as property.

Property rights as understood today include basic rights of use and transfer. When we take intellectual property such as music without the consent of it's creator to copy and use we have taken from them unfairly. That is the basis of the idea that piracy, even as a "mere copy", is truly theft from the originator of that property.

When you copy music without consent, outside of the current and very binding US laws on copyright, you are in effect stealing.

you fucking thieves.

*****************************************

(this image was stolen using google images from some unkown website from some unkown creator that can suck my dick if he has a problem with it)

silverback · 02-09-2010

so you agree with me. great.

Dictator Bob · 02-09-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trancehed

No matter how you look at it.. you get to vote for your REPRESENTATIVES, and you receive services for the taxes you pay. I'm not even saying some of the tea party doesn't have some good points. But stop calling it the damn tea party.

Anyway.. back on topic..

Dude have you even read anything on how republican or democratic government works / how it has "worked out" in the past? How the Nazi party was formed and how it rose to power? Or how the USSR or CPC operate(d) parliamentary over the last century? Aside from that, the actual tea party and the issues with taxation in the colonial states was much deeper than just some superficial dissatisfaction with tea imports. Were you aware that there was representation within the British parliament for the colonial states at the time of the Boston Tea Party?

I am asking seriously how much you know about this. Because your answers are very similar to hundreds of similar responses I've read on various topics. And almost across the board there was little to no understanding of how the system actually works, what predicated it, and what predated it. Nor was there any reasonable understanding of comparable systems of government actually functioning in the world today. I am not by ANY means saying you're uneducated on the subject matter or that your opinions are invalid. I am merely curious to know if you've give much thought or study to how these concepts came about (and perhaps a little encouragement to dig deeper to bolster your opinion).

Really, it seems you miss the one basic fear that dissent from this faction seems to focus on. Fear of further devolution into an unrepresentative oligarchy. How this is not easy to understand or worse completely ignored baffles me. I don't care what the opinions around it are, I just cannot believe the core issue isn't addressed.

So when you say "you're represented" I truly question how you've come to be ... so sure about that hmm? Are you?

*shrug*

Dictator Bob · 02-09-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverback

so you agree with me. great.

Nah.

Dictator Bob · 02-09-2010

Alas, my love, you do me wrong,
To cast me off discourteously.
For I have loved you well and long,
Delighting in your company.

Greensleeves was all my joy
Greensleeves was my delight,
Greensleeves was my heart of gold,
And who but my lady greensleeves.

Your vows you've broken, like my heart,
Oh, why did you so enrapture me?
Now I remain in a world apart
But my heart remains in captivity.

as true today as it 'twas then!!

click here to watch the video

Close

2You need to upgrade your Flash Player2

This belongs to all of us now, as one people.

Trancehed · 02-09-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dictator Bob

Dude have you even read anything on how republican or democratic government works / how it has "worked out" in the past? How the Nazi party was formed and how it rose to power? Or how the USSR or CPC operate(d) parliamentary over the last century? Aside from that, the actual tea party and the issues with taxation in the colonial states was much deeper than just some superficial dissatisfaction with tea imports. Were you aware that there was representation within the British parliament for the colonial states at the time of the Boston Tea Party?

I am asking seriously how much you know about this. Because your answers are very similar to hundreds of similar responses I've read on various topics. And almost across the board there was little to no understanding of how the system actually works, what predicated it, and what predated it. Nor was there any reasonable understanding of comparable systems of government actually functioning in the world today. I am not by ANY means saying you're uneducated on the subject matter or that your opinions are invalid. I am merely curious to know if you've give much thought or study to how these concepts came about (and perhaps a little encouragement to dig deeper to bolster your opinion).

Really, it seems you miss the one basic fear that dissent from this faction seems to focus on. Fear of further devolution into an unrepresentative oligarchy. How this is not easy to understand or worse completely ignored baffles me. I don't care what the opinions around it are, I just cannot believe the core issue isn't addressed.

So when you say "you're represented" I truly question how you've come to be ... so sure about that hmm? Are you?

*shrug*

They voted for their representatives?

Dictator Bob · 02-09-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trancehed

They voted for their representatives?

Feel free to actually provide an answer?

Trancehed · 02-09-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dictator Bob

Feel free to actually provide an answer?

I asked you a question.. since you're the expert.. feel free to answer it

Dictator Bob · 02-09-2010

Okay dude, I'll leave it there then with a majority "no" assumption. ;-)

silverback · 02-09-2010

you must be agreeing with me; there's really no other explanation. awesome. i win.

02-06-2010	#102 (permalink)
the wolf Get Vietnam on your ass Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9,805 Thanks: 2,394 Thanked 3,461 Times in 2,185 Posts	Back in the day I used to just stick a blank tape in and record off the radio. No one really called that stealing of piracy __________________ FUCK THE POLICE

02-06-2010	#104 (permalink)
Dook Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Mission Bay Park. Posts: 14,555 Thanks: 3,417 Thanked 1,878 Times in 1,166 Posts	whatever helps you sleep at night, thief. __________________ What do you know about Funktion-One?

02-06-2010	#110 (permalink)
Dictator Bob meh. Forum Supporter! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Inside. Posts: 5,962 Thanks: 551 Thanked 1,336 Times in 829 Posts	Adelord in with a bitchslap! Holy fuck, artificial scarcity and everything lol ! __________________ Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.

02-06-2010	#111 (permalink)
Dook Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Mission Bay Park. Posts: 14,555 Thanks: 3,417 Thanked 1,878 Times in 1,166 Posts	I have no moral objection to stealing. you guys do. I'm surprised you hippies don't work for free. __________________ What do you know about Funktion-One?

02-07-2010	#112 (permalink)
Psilo Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 816 Thanks: 81 Thanked 366 Times in 195 Posts	Seriously, who the fuck cares about stealing. Pride is something you should hold in high regard when youre 12 years old. You should know how the world works by now. If someone wants to make music, they should do it out of love. If they cant make money off of it, find a real job and make music on the side. Cause im stealing that shit and so are millions of others. No wait, billions. So find a new way and quit bitching about what Im doing. __________________ http://www.myspace.com/hrl707

02-07-2010	#113 (permalink)
Richie Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Eastlake Posts: 1,033 Thanks: 37 Thanked 180 Times in 128 Posts	I have some demonoid invitations if anyone needs them ahahahaah __________________

02-07-2010	#114 (permalink)
kellen Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,786 Thanks: 106 Thanked 758 Times in 451 Posts	I'll touch on the issue of music piracy and say that I'll stop pirating music when the compensation structures are completely re-done in the record industry and the majority of the proceeds from the sale of a CD go to the artists and not the greedy record executives. Major record labels are full of greedy pigs who are just looking to exploit their next new sensation so they can fatten their wallets. Record execs are (IMO) one of the main reasons why people keep saying that major market music is going downhill in quality. As it is right now bands and artists can still profit from touring and the related ticket and merchandise sales, but the whole profit structure on the sale of the actual music is so retardedly structured that I really wonder why more artists haven't spoken up. Yeah I pirate music (mostly mainstream stuff, EDM stuff I end up buying because I want good quality for playing out with), but I also go out and see artists live and support them that way. The record execs can bitch about piracy all they want, all they're really trying to do is protect their own pocketbooks and financial gain. __________________ SOUNDCLOUD (Mixes) FACEBOOK (Say Hi / Bookings) 3/17 - HUMPNIGHT @ AC Lounge 3/20 - U31 w/ FARE SOLDI (Italy) (My Birthday Party!)

02-07-2010	#115 (permalink)
Trancehed RaveMaster Forum Supporter! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: 742 Evergreen Terrace Posts: 30,836 Thanks: 3,437 Thanked 2,776 Times in 1,734 Posts	I should say too it's not about being a cheap skate for me. I pay PLENTY for entertainment. I own 2 game systems, I buy video games and play rented ones (dave has a gamefly account). I pay monthly for Blockbuster online (for bluray movies), I go to the movies frequently (mostly for 3d and/or IMAX), pay for LIVE entertainment (raves, clubs, etc). I pay for satellite radio and TV. I pay for apps and games on my cell phone. Basically I pay for entertainment that I feel is worthy of my money. __________________ myspace Last edited by Trancehed; 02-07-2010 at 02:38 PM..

02-07-2010	#116 (permalink)
DEVICE Whiskey Bent & Hell Bound Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: innerspace Posts: 5,446 Thanks: 1,700 Thanked 2,599 Times in 1,462 Posts	I am most ill and I'm rhyming and stealing. __________________ upcoming events that i will be [O/][iii][O/] @: Lost Minds 2/12 Scream - 2/19 V.S. Secret Sessions: 5/01 pm for info Smile 5/22 Do Me Dirty 5/29 Phantasmagoria aka The SD Techno Takeover 7/16 & 17 Tableworks III S.F. summer 2010 Wildlife 2010 postponed till late summer MTBA - The Desert Beckons mixes and more information @ myspace \| plurlife \| souncloud \| facebook \| goodghostarmy.com

02-08-2010	#120 (permalink)
Dook Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Mission Bay Park. Posts: 14,555 Thanks: 3,417 Thanked 1,878 Times in 1,166 Posts	So the hardware needed to play your stolen music is worth the money, but the actual media isn't? Yeah, Record execs and distribution centers do take their cut, but they do have a job, and unlike yourselves, think they should be compensated. Producing, housing, and distributing said media costs money, a lot of it. Data Center space and Internet connections are not free. I'm sure artists would like to get more, but without the backing of a major record label, your band is going nowhere. Also, when you steal music, you are guaranteeing that the artist gets absolutely nothing for the music, so you are stealing from them as well. To determine if you're stealing: Is it available for purchase? Did you pay for it? If your answers go "Yes" then "No" then you are a thief. __________________ What do you know about Funktion-One?

02-08-2010	#122 (permalink)
DEVICE Whiskey Bent & Hell Bound Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: innerspace Posts: 5,446 Thanks: 1,700 Thanked 2,599 Times in 1,462 Posts	i down load shit nowadays. but the GOOD stuff gets replaced with wavs. i like this method i use for finding new tunes now cause i can test tunes in contrast to the rest of my collection. if i like the track and i want it in my song repertoire i buy a wav and convert it to flac for storage and tagging reasons. and yes if an artist does not release his or her work into public domain and you own a copy of said tune and did not pay for it you have ripped the artist off. sure you did not steal a material object from any one but you have not compensated the artist for their work and thus decreased the total profit that could have been made buy sales of the tune. removing the chance to make money might not look bad to you but imagine if i showed up to your place of work and would not let you in your building thus removing the chance to earn money. its not stealing but you are suffering from my actions. __________________ upcoming events that i will be [O/][iii][O/] @: Lost Minds 2/12 Scream - 2/19 V.S. Secret Sessions: 5/01 pm for info Smile 5/22 Do Me Dirty 5/29 Phantasmagoria aka The SD Techno Takeover 7/16 & 17 Tableworks III S.F. summer 2010 Wildlife 2010 postponed till late summer MTBA - The Desert Beckons mixes and more information @ myspace \| plurlife \| souncloud \| facebook \| goodghostarmy.com

02-08-2010	#124 (permalink)
Trancehed RaveMaster Forum Supporter! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: 742 Evergreen Terrace Posts: 30,836 Thanks: 3,437 Thanked 2,776 Times in 1,734 Posts	Artists and actors are suffering SOOOOO much I know. I should feel bad for them. __________________ myspace

02-08-2010	#125 (permalink)
silverback mavs win the mega bowl! Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: np! Posts: 2,179 Thanks: 870 Thanked 540 Times in 354 Posts	thats a moral judgment. i thought this wast a moral thing. __________________ you know how the world is gonna end? tank girl.

02-08-2010	#126 (permalink)
ananda Dream Is Destiny Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Cowles Mountain Posts: 7,639 Thanks: 99 Thanked 108 Times in 81 Posts	this makes me think of an interesting story i heard in class the other day. one of my business teachers used to work for prince. prince was getting pretty tired of producing cds for his record company since he was only getting like $0.70 per $17 cd. the record companies can get away with this as it supposedly covers their distribution expense. so the next time prince went on tour he bought a couple hundred thousand of his own cds. he then raised the ticket prices $10 and gave away a "free" cd with each ticket. that whole $10 went in his pocket and bam his cd was on the top 40 list all without a single retail store being involved. he provided his own distribution. tony i know this doesn't really answer your question but i think it illustrates a point that in most cases we're paying double digits for music or software that probably only cost a few cents to produce. Such a small portion actually makes it to the artist and yet they're often millionaires. what i think we need to be asking ourselves is what we feel is an allowable profit margin. and what kind of margins are just "criminal". (bad pun i know) Most of us are lucky to get 2% on a savings account but record companies are most likely making 2000% per cd. that just doesn't feel right to me. __________________ StudyStudyStudyWorkWorkWork(Dance) StudyStudyStudyWorkWorkWork(Dance) Last edited by ananda; 02-08-2010 at 06:38 PM..

02-08-2010	#128 (permalink)
adelord plastik&discordianshaman Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: San Diego Posts: 294 Thanks: 108 Thanked 93 Times in 68 Posts	if the economic war of the last century was capitalism vs. communism, then I expect the economic war of the next century to be global corporations vs. global citizens. the large music corporations and their distribution channels are no longer necessary or worth the cost to many artists, and they often never were. DIY for the win, as always. __________________ "knowledge without mileage doesn't mean much to me " -- Henry Rollins ◖◍◗

02-09-2010	#131 (permalink)
Thadeau Thadeau-level3records Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: SD,CA-Colima,MX-Saquarema,BR Posts: 2,312 Thanks: 1,221 Thanked 435 Times in 296 Posts	this is a great conversation. I actually learned something on sdr...... __________________ www.THADEAU.com www.level3records.com

02-09-2010	#132 (permalink)
silverback mavs win the mega bowl! Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: np! Posts: 2,179 Thanks: 870 Thanked 540 Times in 354 Posts	after reading this thread, ive decided to stop paying for cable and just tap into my neighbors line instead. i mean, its not like its stealing, so it should be fine. __________________ you know how the world is gonna end? tank girl.

02-09-2010	#136 (permalink)
Trancehed RaveMaster Forum Supporter! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: 742 Evergreen Terrace Posts: 30,836 Thanks: 3,437 Thanked 2,776 Times in 1,734 Posts	The thing I hate about the tea party.. is they are trying to relate the current situation to the boston tea party. When, in fact, it is nothing like that. The original tea party was about no taxation without representation. You had England taxing the states, and giving them NOTHING for that. I don't really see the relation personally. We ARE getting things out of our taxes. AND we have lots of representation. Are we paying too much in taxes? Probably. Is our government spending our money in the best possible way? Probably not. But I still think it's the best country in the world. Or at least in the top 3. I mean, it's nowhere near perfect. And there's things I absolutely hate about it. But I can deal. I enjoy my way of life. __________________ myspace

02-09-2010	#142 (permalink)
silverback mavs win the mega bowl! Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: np! Posts: 2,179 Thanks: 870 Thanked 540 Times in 354 Posts	so you agree with me. great. __________________ you know how the world is gonna end? tank girl.

02-09-2010	#145 (permalink)
Dictator Bob meh. Forum Supporter! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Inside. Posts: 5,962 Thanks: 551 Thanked 1,336 Times in 829 Posts	Alas, my love, you do me wrong, To cast me off discourteously. For I have loved you well and long, Delighting in your company. Greensleeves was all my joy Greensleeves was my delight, Greensleeves was my heart of gold, And who but my lady greensleeves. Your vows you've broken, like my heart, Oh, why did you so enrapture me? Now I remain in a world apart But my heart remains in captivity. as true today as it 'twas then!! click here to watch the video Close 2You need to upgrade your Flash Player2 This belongs to all of us now, as one people. __________________ Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. Last edited by Dictator Bob; 02-09-2010 at 05:20 PM..

02-09-2010	#149 (permalink)
Dictator Bob meh. Forum Supporter! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Inside. Posts: 5,962 Thanks: 551 Thanked 1,336 Times in 829 Posts	Okay dude, I'll leave it there then with a majority "no" assumption. ;-) __________________ Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.

02-09-2010	#150 (permalink)
silverback mavs win the mega bowl! Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: np! Posts: 2,179 Thanks: 870 Thanked 540 Times in 354 Posts	you must be agreeing with me; there's really no other explanation. awesome. i win. __________________ you know how the world is gonna end? tank girl.

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