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Old 09-30-2007   #1
taochaos
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Ron Paul calls for reform to "the war on drugs"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8S8N2OG7sU

Check it.
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Old 10-01-2007   #2
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To bad he has a snowballs chance in hell to get elected.
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Old 10-01-2007   #3
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And too bad he's a libertarian running as a republican. Probably even further ruining his chances of being elected.
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Old 10-01-2007   #4
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I think it was Bill Maher who said "put the right people to death". I can get behind that.
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Old 10-01-2007   #5
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And too bad he's a libertarian running as a republican. Probably even further ruining his chances of being elected.
not really ...... look at the rest of the republican candidates. I bet none of them would win on "are you smarter than a 5th grader". Ron Paul also raised 1.2 Million dollars in 1 week of his 3RD quarter fund raising. This puts him on par with all the other major candidates in that same time period. (See Edwards 1 Million in 10 Days - etc.) His snowball chance in hell is at least at small iceberg status in hell.
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Old 10-01-2007   #6
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even with the great fundraising efforts, the powers that be wont let him get the nod. doesnt mean that getting his message out there is a waste though, he's clearly got alot of people fired up.
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Old 10-01-2007   #7
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I don't agree with most of his stances anyway... but yeah, iceberg at best..
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Old 10-01-2007   #8
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i'm surprised adam hasn't posted on this thread.
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Old 10-01-2007   #9
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I love Ron Paul more than I will love my first born child.
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Old 10-01-2007   #10
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Quote:
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I don't agree with most of his stances anyway... but yeah, iceberg at best..
it's ok.... we all have our faults
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Old 10-01-2007   #11
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I love Ron Paul more than I will love my first born child.
Uhh, well I know a good child psychologist. Just for future reference...
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Old 10-01-2007   #12
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I don't agree with most of his stances anyway... but yeah, iceberg at best..
Which ones:

http://www.ronpaullibrary.com

I bet you agree with 100% of what he has to say Tony. Find me anything in that library you don't believe in. From your right to be a husband some day, our right to assemble peacefully, our right to make our own life choices, our rights to our own property, and our rights to choose our leaders. I know you're a fairly smart guy, even if you may be a quiet one.

As for his electability yes, it's a challenge. But you all know why it is a challenge. It's unfortunate that so many people are willing to say "it can't happen" instead of "that's bullshit, this is our country" like those of us who are working hard to make it happen.

And as for being a Libertarian, Libertarian is the rebrand of the founders political belief - classical liberalism. And before you judge the philosophy of Liberty, you should understand what it truly means. And in it's application to Ron Paul - he is the ONLY true conservative running for office right now.

Quote:
I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.

-Ronald Reagan
Unlike the last 100 years we now have the internet. Which means there is an army of us fighting to inform and educate everyone on what the power brokers are hiding. Yes, yes I know. I know he can't win etc. etc., but that doesn't mean I am going to give up hope or try to get through to you that we actually have a shot. Because if I do not then you do not, if you do not someone else does not either. In the end I do not expect you to do anything except sit back and take it from these guys. But what you don't know that I do know is that you've been lied to in the hopes that you will do nothing.

Listen to it from the man the neocons tried to make their own:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=3

He says it all. It's worth taking the time to see what he said when he left the democratic party, and why. I promise you they are doing everything they can to minimize the Freedom movement and stop people like myself from spreading that kind of information. Because if people find out what Ronald Reagan said in the 70's they would never accept what he let happen in the 80's. The list of these things goes on, but this is as far as I can go here. You have to want to change things to go any further. I still believe in democracy and the free market. Unless you want to spend the rest of your life with yourself, your loved ones, and your family in slavery to the corporation I would hope you would stake out your claim to liberty now.

(there's your obligatory rant!)

You can find the rest at http://www.freeme.tv
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Old 10-01-2007   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictator Bob View Post
Which ones:

http://www.ronpaullibrary.com

I bet you agree with 100% of what he has to say Tony. Find me anything in that library you don't believe in. From your right to be a husband some day, our right to assemble peacefully, our right to make our own life choices, our rights to our own property, and our rights to choose our leaders. I know you're a fairly smart guy, even if you may be a quiet one.

As for his electability yes, it's a challenge. But you all know why it is a challenge. It's unfortunate that so many people are willing to say "it can't happen" instead of "that's bullshit, this is our country" like those of us who are working hard to make it happen.

And as for being a Libertarian, Libertarian is the rebrand of the founders political belief - classical liberalism. And before you judge the philosophy of Liberty, you should understand what it truly means. And in it's application to Ron Paul - he is the ONLY true conservative running for office right now.



Unlike the last 100 years we now have the internet. Which means there is an army of us fighting to inform and educate everyone on what the power brokers are hiding. Yes, yes I know. I know he can't win etc. etc., but that doesn't mean I am going to give up hope or try to get through to you that we actually have a shot. Because if I do not then you do not, if you do not someone else does not either. In the end I do not expect you to do anything except sit back and take it from these guys. But what you don't know that I do know is that you've been lied to in the hopes that you will do nothing.

Listen to it from the man the neocons tried to make their own:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=3

He says it all. It's worth taking the time to see what he said when he left the democratic party, and why.

(there's your obligatory rant!)

You can find the rest at http://www.freeme.tv
*I'm pro-choice (even though I personally would never abort or ask someone to. But I don't think it should be the government's decision.)
*I'm for stem cell research
*I don't believe "under God" belongs in the pledge of allegiance.
*I'm for the death penalty.
*He voted no on Amber Alert (wtf)
*He is against gun control

yadda yadda. But mainly it's that Libertarians believe in a minimal government. Privatize everything. We all see how well that's worked out for energy companies.

I'm closer to the Green party than anyone. And that's like the total opposite end of the spectrum. Sure I like some of his ideas. But it scares me to think what this country would be like with a Libertarian in control. Of course, they wouldn't get anywhere anyway with republicans and democrats overwhelmingly everywhere else in politics.
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Old 10-01-2007   #14
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*I'm for stem cell research
*I don't believe "under God" belongs in the pledge of allegiance.
*I'm for the death penalty.
*He voted no on Amber Alert (wtf)
*He is against gun control

--------

All of those issues under a Ron Paul Ideal World would be left up to the states to decide. Those should be local issues, not federal issues. That means we as Californians would get to write our own legislation to decide on these, instead of some bumpkin redneck in the bible belt causing us 8 years of suffering.

People see Ron Paul votiing no on things like Amber Alert, and think he's a heartless bastard, but what it comes down to is he believes in a minimal FEDERAL government.
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Old 10-01-2007   #15
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Quote:
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*I'm pro-choice (even though I personally would never abort or ask someone to. But I don't think it should be the government's decision.)
*I'm for stem cell research
*I don't believe "under God" belongs in the pledge of allegiance.
*I'm for the death penalty.
*He voted no on Amber Alert (wtf)
*He is against gun control

yadda yadda. But mainly it's that Libertarians believe in a minimal government. Privatize everything. We all see how well that's worked out for energy companies.

I'm closer to the Green party than anyone. And that's like the total opposite end of the spectrum. Sure I like some of his ideas. But it scares me to think what this country would be like with a Libertarian in control. Of course, they wouldn't get anywhere anyway with republicans and democrats overwhelmingly everywhere else in politics.

I'm huge.. absolutely huge on Pro-Choice. You could almost even say Im Pro-Abortion in that I dont believe Fetus's are worth anything at all. If someone thinks a fetus is "alive" - they might be correct, scientifically. But if someone thinks a fetus is "conscious", they are absolutely delusional, which can't be argued unless you know nothing about biology.

And thats my #1 issue. So what would make someone like me still so down with Ron Paul as a candidate? The explanation is so simple and self-defined. It's because Ron Paul's personal opinion on THAT subject doesn't matter. What matters is his opinion on THIS: State's should STILL be in charge of such a huge decision, rather than the Federal government, no matter how big of an issue is. Paul thinks Roe Vs. Wade was a bad court decision, but he still understands the significance of the decision behind it. States should always have more power than the Federal/National power around them and thats the main appeal.

It doesnt matter what Ron Paul *really* thinks behind specific issues if you disagree with them, but rather how those specific issues might have come to official law. What I mean by this is that just because you might have personal disagreements with some of his stances behind laws (as I absolutely do), it doesnt mean you disagree with how he GOES ABOUT changing those laws that he might be referencing.

That's exactly where I stand. I wasn't raised or grown into a community anything like Ron Paul was. Myself and Ron are total opposites - but I SEE that he's the most realistic, down-to-earth, positive-thinking candidate that ever walked the face of the political Earth. And with Ron Paul, would come a change that the planet needs. It would be more revolutionary than FDR or JFK. It would be the ultimate savior to this country. Ron Paul is the person who shouldn't only lead this country, but who should probably lead the world. Every single thing that comes out of his mouht is the "real, scientific" truth, and Science is the only thing that should guide humanity. Faith is obsolete.
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Old 10-01-2007   #16
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Actually... i stand corrected. Gun ownership is guaranteed in the under the constitution. That woud nullify any state law. Any candidate would have to get a constitutional amendment to get Gun Control inacted into federal law. I can almost guarantee you non of the current candidates give a rats ass about gun control on that type of level.
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Old 10-01-2007   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trancehed View Post
*
*I'm for stem cell research
*I don't believe "under God" belongs in the pledge of allegiance.
*I'm for the death penalty.
*He voted no on Amber Alert (wtf)
*He is against gun control

He supports state decisions regarding stem cell research. He is against subsidization at taxpayer expense, especially when it comes to forcing individuals to pay for federal programs they are morally or spiritually opposed to. That doesn't mean we shouldn't conduct stem cell research, but are you telling me you support forcing people who are spiritually opposed to it to pay for it too?

Why should "under God" be removed from the pledge of allegiance? Unless you mean God should be removed to seperate church and state. Ron Paul couldn't agree more. In his view it is the integration of state and school that has caused this problem. Statist intervention into the school system has decayed our education system and forced intrusion into religious beliefs. It's not that we should remove "under God" from our speach - it's that we should remove the state from our right to speak.

He says that the death penalty is a state decision (as it is today). He said he is against a federal death penalty, and his reasoning is because of the recent DNA overturns showing executed prisoners were actually innocent. What about those people who are being held for execution that are falsely accused? And even though he is morally against the death penalty just as he is against abortion, he understand it is not his decision: it is ours. And therefore it is a state decision.

The Amber alert hits home. There are many reasons he is against the attempts to federalize more and more crimes; because these seemingly just and noble causes are actually being pushed for other reasons. But I don't even have to go into that, I can just tell ya Tony you've been fucking bamboozled. You want to know what the "Amber alert" really was? It wasn't some noble anti-child rapist law.

This was how they passed the R.A.V.E act right under our noses and that is the main reason he voted against it.

I'm going to assume you know what the R.A.V.E. act is. So they did this to us Tony, and then they convinced you of all people that he voted against stopping child molesters and kidnappers.

http://www.drugpolicy.org/communities/raveact/

He did it to protect us! The ravers!

As for "gun control", what guns do you want to control? Seriously, where are there guns in your life that could do harm to you any less than a knife or a baseball bat in the hands of a madman? They not only convinced you that Ron Paul supports child molestors while sneaking in an assault on our Liberties across the board but they've convinced you that you do not have the right to bear arms. Instead of telling you the truth about weapons: that people use them for a reason, they have convinced you that if we "control guns" we will stop school shootings?

Homicide is nothing new, but the rate of homicide has nothing to do with the amount of weapons and the type available. This is a very complicated issue but I would advise you research the statistics on the matter instead of the heartfelt sympathybabble they spew about murderers taking the lives of our loved ones. We don't need gun control, we need murder control.

And that all said, the founders were quite clear that we have the 2nd amendment to arm the people so that the government does not have the ability to disarm them. And in Jefferson's own words:

"The beauty of the 2nd amendment is that we will not need it until they try to take it away."
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Old 10-01-2007   #18
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sorry, what i'm about to say is my opinion based on years of being politically active - there are some of the most naive statements i've ever read in this thread. i'm not pointing out which, i'll just say that some of you see the president as having far more power and influence than the actuality of the office.

edit: oh, and ron paul does not have a chance at becoming president. people who stand by their ideals do not win the presidency. you know why? because they stick to their ideals...
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Old 10-01-2007   #19
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The most naive statement in this thread hands down is this one:

Quote:
... there are some of the most naive statements i've ever read in this thread. i'm not pointing out which ...
It's not about what you say home skillet. It's about how you say it.

Quote:
edit: oh, and ron paul does not have a chance at becoming president. people who stand by their ideals do not win the presidency. you know why? because they stick to their ideals...
Only because good people stand down.
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Old 10-01-2007   #20
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ohhhh yeah and lulz we are pulling a fundraising shocker in a few days so stfu if you think he can't be elected. He might not be elected but he damn well can be.



You have no idea how big the movement is, and that's nothing compared to how big it's going to be in 3 months.
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Old 10-01-2007   #21
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I'm voting for either Obama or Hillary.

Honestly my main thing with Ron Paul is that he is a Libertarian at heart. And Libertarians believe in a minimalistic government. And I'm sorry but at least in todays society I do not believe that would be a good thing for the citizens as a whole.

Not that he doesn't have some good ideas. Or that I disagree with them all. He's just not the best choice for me.
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Old 10-01-2007   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paragonconcept View Post
*I'm for stem cell research
*I don't believe "under God" belongs in the pledge of allegiance.
*I'm for the death penalty.
*He voted no on Amber Alert (wtf)
*He is against gun control

--------

All of those issues under a Ron Paul Ideal World would be left up to the states to decide. Those should be local issues, not federal issues. That means we as Californians would get to write our own legislation to decide on these, instead of some bumpkin redneck in the bible belt causing us 8 years of suffering.

People see Ron Paul votiing no on things like Amber Alert, and think he's a heartless bastard, but what it comes down to is he believes in a minimal FEDERAL government.
I see what you are saying. I'm just going by what he has voted on in the past. Unfortunately no great detail was given.
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Old 10-01-2007   #23
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Quote:
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sorry, what i'm about to say is my opinion based on years of being politically active - there are some of the most naive statements i've ever read in this thread. i'm not pointing out which, i'll just say that some of you see the president as having far more power and influence than the actuality of the office.

edit: oh, and ron paul does not have a chance at becoming president. people who stand by their ideals do not win the presidency. you know why? because they stick to their ideals...
I don't think anyone in this thread thinks that a Ron Paul victory would lead to an immediate dismantlement of the current US political structure, but what it would do would be to change the mindset of American voters. You'd be amazed how many people have never even thought about these issues in the terms that Ron Paul is presenting. I think your putting words in people mouths by calling their statements naive and then following it up with a disillusioned statement about the hopes and future of american politics.

Also don't pussyfoot around, if you have a critique of someones post on the subject, reference it. An open dialogue is the only way to get the issues out in the open.
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Old 10-01-2007   #24
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Quote:
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I'm voting for either Obama or Hillary.

Honestly my main thing with Ron Paul is that he is a Libertarian at heart. And Libertarians believe in a minimalistic government. And I'm sorry but at least in todays society I do not believe that would be a good thing for the citizens as a whole.

Not that he doesn't have some good ideas. Or that I disagree with them all. He's just not the best choice for me.
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I see what you are saying. I'm just going by what he has voted on in the past. Unfortunately no great detail was given.
You are correct. When i first looked at his voting record, i was somewhat shocked about why people thought i'd like this guy. You know me, people would consider allot of my opinions to be extrememly liberal. It didn't really click for me until i realized that he's pretty much operating on a different set of values than other law makers. Because of his belief that the federal government shouldn't be extremely limited to the powers granted within the constitution, he voted practically against everything. It's a very strange shift from voting something up or down on how you feel on the subject, and shifting the focus to do you believe that this is something that the feds should be involved in. That's really what it comes down to with Dr. Paul, do you think the feds should have as much power as they currently do. I tend to believe that they definitly shouldn't.
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Old 10-01-2007   #25
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you are right, i can't imagine why i've becomed disillusioned with american politics. it's completely escaping me. oh i'm sorry, i was simply spouting, as PREFACED IN MY ORIGINAL STATEMENT (see what i did there?), that these were my OPINIONS. please reference dictionary.com if the word seems confusing to you in any way.

i don't discuss politics online, not anymore and it's threads like this that only further my own belief (or opinion if you will) that it is pointless. i'm sorry you disagree with my opinion, but i believe, and i may be wrong (i'm not), that i am entitled to my own opinions no matter how much they disagree with your own personal belief system. furthermmore, i was under the obvious delusion that one had the right to spout whatever opinion he or she may desire spouting while online, thus creating this "amazing" (see the quotes) exchange of ideas known as the internet.

i never put a single word in anyone's mouth, but instead replied to what word were written. as i was not the poster of said thoughts, it is only my duty to interpret the words i read and respond accordingly. if i was incorrect (i rarely am), then maybe one should look into the comments one made and then try and look at them from the point of view of someone who does not share your beliefs, well then maybe we can all start to understand each other. but who wants that?
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Old 10-01-2007   #26
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Only because good people stand down.
see, that my friends, is an OPINION. i wanted to point one out so it would be easier to understand what "opinion" means.
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Old 10-01-2007   #27
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Quote:
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see, that my friends, is an OPINION. i wanted to point one out so it would be easier to understand what "opinion" means.
There’s a difference between stating an opinion, and calling someone naïve. Calling someone naïve was an inflammatory comment, which was based on what I believed to be an incorrect assumption. Like if I where to say my opinion of you is that you’re inarticulate, narcissistic, asshole, that is definitely an opinion. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean it can be said without expecting a response of some sort.

In the end you are correct, you are entitled to your opinions. And as an American you are entitled to say any asinine comment that pops into your head…… but don’t get pissed off when people actually respond to your statements. In all honesty, my previous post wasn’t meant to be offensive. It was meant to encourage discussion of an issue that I think is important. If you feel that the previous discussion was an attack on you, you may want to try and disconnect your personal ego from the discussion and keep an open mind.
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Old 10-01-2007   #28
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see, that my friends, is an OPINION. i wanted to point one out so it would be easier to understand what "opinion" means.
Starting flame wars is the activity of someone weak on debate.
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Honestly my main thing with Ron Paul is that he is a Libertarian at heart. And Libertarians believe in a minimalistic government. And I'm sorry but at least in todays society I do not believe that would be a good thing for the citizens as a whole.
One of the things the people in the Freedom movement discuss is the tactics they use in politics recently. Where they expect you to get all of your ideas in 30 seconds or less. It is difficult for us conveying the truth in this time. So, I can't do that in thirty seconds. I can't tell you that you're wrong either, I can do only what we in the movement all agree on. I can ask you to take what I have to tell you with a grain of salt. I can ask you to read and study before you make that decision. And when you do, if you agree, please join us as we desperately need your help and we need it now.

I refuse to allow the television to control me any longer, and so I refuse to be brief in explaining my beliefs.


Libertarian means you believe in Liberty. That it is up to us to make the decisions in our life in the marketplace of ideals. What you are voting for is corporatism. The idea that the lobbyists shall decide where your money is spent, how, and when. A system that was put in place by bankers nearly 100 years ago and slowly and surely expanded upon each decade. A system that you never chose for yourself but were born into. Presented from birth two sides left or right and told to choose based on what they said was your individuality. Libertarianism is the name given to us when "liberal" took over "classical liberal". Libertarianism in it's truest form (and not it's extreme) is the bedrock foundation of this great nation. It is the rights given to us not by the government, a government that now dictates to you just how much of your labor you can keep each week.It is the rights given to you by your creator that are inalienable, rights that the government now says is theirs to restrict or eliminate. Libertarianism means quite literally that no other individual has a right to your life, liberty, or property but yourself. And when they took that away from us we slowly began our decline. It is not for lack of government money that our people suffer. It is because they force us to pay half of our lives into a system that does not work, is not fair, and steals to pay trillions to special interests. A system that is corporate sponsored , corporate mandated, and corporate enforced.

You work for the government half of the year each year of your life. And they give you nothing in return that is anywhere near as valuable as what we could do on our own. They've fooled you into thinking that they can do better what we would do on our own. They take your money and pay off interest to the central bank which in turn creates more and more bubbles to burst. The bubbles burst and they flood new money made of nothing into the bank system, loans become cheaper and more Americans take advantage of "low interest rates". Then the bubble bursts again. In order to fund their countless “social programs” they continue to borrow from the central bank, decreasing the value of the dollar which decreases the purchasing power of the poor and middle class. Feeding it back to you in the name of entitlement, free this or free that you are heartless if you do not support it. They've fleeced us, they've stolen the treasury and oppressed people in the name of welfare. They've lied to you about entitlements, telling you that it's ok because they will pay for your education, your old age, all of the poor, and now your health. While sucking that money right out of the poor and middle class themselves, and lobbyist swarm over the halls of congress to let the people we elect know where that money will be sent. Nine trillion dollars in debt, most of this debt privately held to the central bank. Much of this debt now held by China, and as the war drags on more and more of our country is sold to a country that is the antithesis of Democracy.


They tell you that we can't do it on our own, that the people cannot manage without government central planning. The corporatists need this monopoly they hold over government regulation, and both Clinton and Obama have already committed this to them. While a war based on a pack of lies rages and people are dying they commit to no withdrawal and permanent bases. While the Republican party was subverted by the neoconservatives, men who at one time were democrats, the democratic party has been subverted by the so called "progressives" with the exact same global agenda. They move to dissolve our borders while at the same time protecting us from the terrorists, the drug dealers, and the murderer with the guns he bought at the gun show. The U.N. makes the decisions for our military. Free trade has been supplanted by NAFTA and CAFTA, perfectly engineered for corporate control with no regards to real free trade - trade without tariff on the individuals who trade. Instead of free trade the corporations make these decisions for us, feeding us with replicated product sold to you in every store in every American city and slowly but surely every American town. Gone is the American industry, where we produced goods and services locally or nationally and delivered them to each other. Now is the time of the corporation, sponsored as much by Democrat “liberal” ideology as any RHINO corporatist masquerading as a “conservative”. The libertarian ideal of the free market, what the classical liberals of the revolutionary time fought and shed their very blood for has been destroyed. Instead of trade and service provided by each other we have been enslaved by the banking system and the corporate conglomerates, now international and not even sovereign, that run the entire system. And what’s worse is they have convinced you that Liberty is something to be afraid of. Because if there is a free market, won’t the evil corporations gain control? How is it that the corporations in gaining control have convinced you that they will do just that in a free market? It is astounding how arrogant they have become in their domination of the markets.

There is no choice in this election. There is more war and more corporate pandering. The democrats in office were put there for a reason, and they have refused to act. There is a reason for this as well - they do not want the war to end. They do not serve the people they have not done so in decades. Their master has ceased to be our will and has been and will continue to be the lobbyist dollar. And of the best of them, the most virtuous they still remove the property from you - your hard earned dollars, to redistribute it to another individual. Once again perpetuating this system and forcing down those communities dependent on the state instead of themselves. Forcing and allowing the abuse of migrant workers, who in a healthy free market economy would be not only needed but welcome in our country. Instead they lay them down in front of you as the scapegoat, the one to blame for our terrible economic policies and inability to police our own borders. Hard working men and women that are just trying to make a living better than what they had before, just like our fathers and fathers father did before us. But we resent them, and we beg them to do something to stop them. And they tell us they will, all the while taking money from the very people that hire them. All the while touting security and removal of your personal liberties, while our sons and daughters are thousands of miles away in another country and immigrant waves pour in from the south.

Enforced by a police system that grows larger and larger each and every day with less and less restrictions on the police and more and more guns in their hands. On every corner you can see them now. Passing out tickets and giving out fines. Stopping assembly in the name of permits or illegal activities such as “potential” drug use. Police that are tasked to find and incarcerate those of us who smuggle substances or plants grown inside or outside of this country. Sending millions of us to jail for non-violent crimes, destroying families and careers for what is a medical issue. All in the name of preventing a disease that requires treatment and is not a crime or par with murder. All while they sell this back to the people as a necessity to stop the “scourge” all the while aware that the true “scourge” are the police themselves invading our homes and our persons without warrant. A police with no respect for your private persons or property. Enforcing countless and endless permits that tell you how you can use your own land, when, and how. Land that in the end is merely rented from the government, for if you do not pay in addition to your income tax your property tax that government will take it away. Land that even if taxes are paid for can be robbed from you by the city-you-live-in's government under the pretense of "eminent domain".

But you don't have to worry about this too much. Because if you are like most Americans you do not even own any land. You cannot afford it, with a few kids and 3 jobs 2.5 televisions and a shitfucktardload of debt yourself never mind that 9 trillion that we've spent on war and entitlement programs that don't work. And you have to go to work every day to pay the bills, with a dollar that's made of paper who's value decreases to offset wall street's retarded decision of the decade. Flooding the market with dollars made out of thin air, supposedly backed by the power to levy taxes - i.e. tax your money made out of thin air to pay back the debt made out of thin air. Strapped down with less and less ability to pay your own debt, the mounting medical bills inflated sky high by a system that enables the maximum cost to be paid, and the inability to even raise your children properly or be involved in their education because you just do not have the time with both of you working and working long hours.

So you have no idea of this theft because you were raised in the government mandated education system, you know the one where they don't allow prayer and there's a fight over the word God? A place where you're put into a room with 30 or 40 other kids, and a teacher who is completely unsatisfied with the system and barely able to teach you what they want. A teacher who may or may not have deep religious convictions, but because of the state they are unable to practice, share, or even speak of them out loud. Because of the disrespect, blatant, of the right to be free to choose and practice your religion no religion can be practiced even in the place of education. And they tell you well, we need to seperate church and state! Bullshit, this is a complete integration of state and church in the name of achieving secularism. They've robbed others of freedom of religion while at the same time destroying the value of the education your tax dollars are supposed to be paying for. And only if the parents knew and understood, it matters not what the teachers pray for it matters that you are involved with your child to ensure they get a good education. To choose what that education is according to who you are and how you want your child to be raised. Heaven forbid this happens, for we all know humans are evil proto-fanatics hell bent on raising hell in a religious furvor right? Or is it simply that we forgot what freedom of religion truly means? That all of us have the right to make that choice, and none of us the right to restrict it.

They have lied to you. They expect you to do what the people before us have done. Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton ... or perhaps maybe Obama is what they hand to you. Or maybe it will be Ghouliani, if we have another "terrorist" attack God help us because that will be the only way he could get in office. Or maybe they won’t even care who or how this time, maybe they will just use the paperless machines as the votes backed up by a mainstream media that tells you it’s how everyone else really felt at the time. A media that is held by five, no more than FIVE corporations who’s executive board population is lower than 150 men at any given time. In the name of a government that cares for you, that isn't racist, that will put your money to good use this time they promise. And as for war, don't you worry about that. We will fix that up nicely and there will be no cutting and running, just sound policy and plenty of oil. We might need to bomb Iran or Pakistan, and we should have those troops out in 2012 or so not including the 17 bases we've established. We support the troops, either supporting them in their mission or in bringing them home… some day. Just trust us, we're the Democrats and we stand for what's right in taking care of the poor. We're the Republicans and we're honorable and traditional.

And after all the theft and destruction wrought upon this world by men who sit in marble palaces discussing the direction of the country and it’s full integration into the global economic system, they tell you that this is the free world. That this is the free market and a successful one at that. They lie and say that the laissez faire ideology we had before the "great depression" was the cause of the depression. The whole while our own constitution which has never been amended states quite clearly that our monetary system is to be held by the people, coined in a unit known as the 'dollar' - a specific weight of silver or gold. A monetary unit that is worth today the exact amount it was 200 years ago. There was a reason that the constitution was written to exclude and prohibit a central bank. And there is a reason that the original founding fathers of our nation fought to stop the central bankers from establishing for decades. And, they predicted that one day they would pass on and we would eventually lose this battle. And they planned for this.

This is what they said:

That if we were beheld to a central banking system that controlled our monetary unit then the corporations would rise up around us and we would wind up homeless on the very continent our forefathers conquered. But we will prohibit this and we will give you a contract that allows you a method to change this. And every generation will have the right to their own revolution, and that each generation as a natural law of mankind shall have one.

Your Liberty was stolen. And I intend to get it back for you whether or not you understand how you lost it. Jefferson said each generation would have it's own revolution. To say that Liberty cannot work in today's world is to say we deserve what they give us. This is what you understand as a Libertarian, and this is our Revolution.
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Old 10-02-2007   #30
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you have to be pretty experienced in how big government and big business work to appreciate ron paul. unfortunately most americans don't have much of a clue about how unethical things are at that level, because all the know is what they see on TV.

some of the reasons given above for not wanting to vote for him are pretty hilarious. people just don't understand how much power federal government has, and how corrupt it has become in the past 100 or so years. hard to see the forest through the trees as the saying goes.

anyway there is not much hope that a majority of the general public will ever be able to understand national-level things well enough to appreciate someone who "gets it" as well as ron paul does.

there would be more hope if the media hadn't all been bought up by big corporations and turned into a complete joke. but the corporations are very effective at controlling things and have plenty of money to do it. and once you own the media, you control the minds of the majority, and then it's easy to stay in control.

the only way out of this kind of situation would be if say, a guy like ron paul came along, with 50,000 highly dedicated supporters out hitting the streets, and maybe $25M in funding. hmmm, sounds about like where we are today

<rant>

all the retards that want to give up their rights and income so big government will make them secure from the bad terrorists are a disgrace. they are a bunch of douchebag wimps and they don't have the slightest clue about the history of this nation. they are somewhere below the cockroach on the scale of intellectual evolution.

gun control? ummm, do you really think anyone objects to keeping guns away from people who have been convicted of a violent crime? I don't think so. but anyone who thinks an honest american should not be allowed to own a gun deserves to be shot.

</rant>

Also don't pay any attention to abortion platforms before the primary election. all the republican candidates have to say they are pro life or the bible belt won't vote for them.

So now to my questions, what is Ron Paul's strategy for all the cash he is raising? He needs to start buying some ads and getting some name recognition soon. what is he doing with the money? he is off to a great start but he still has a long way to go. I am willing to contribute to his campaign if i see that he has a great election strategy. people standing by freeways holding some makeshift signs is not enough. people need to start thinking very big if they want him to be elected.

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Old 10-02-2007   #31
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Old 10-02-2007   #32
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I see what you are saying. I'm just going by what he has voted on in the past. Unfortunately no great detail was given.
i just seems to me that first he asks "do i have the authority to vote "yes?" THEN if he thinks he doesnt, he votes "no." and perhaps if yes he does, then he votes based on what he thinks is best. but its the first step that is the most important. so many of our politicans vote on their own morality without regard for the fact that they may not have the constitutional right to do so.

i disagree with him on so many social issues, but he says that "ok" and i have the right to live how i see fit--that means more issues decided on the state level.

its true that if he had his way, the federal government would be just a shadow of what it is today...but i think thats ok AND i dont think that its a reality. what is it that the FEDERAL government provides that the state cannot? social secuity might be one think that i think we should maintain, but outside of that, i cant see federal regulation of most civic activities as a good thing. ...maybe schools, too, but not the way its done now...thats in need of a major overhaul especially since no child left behind.

im really not trying to change you mind, though i know some others in here are. when it comes down to hillary or obama v. gulianai, i know how i will vote; but now is the time to push THE adgenda that isn't based on populism. mind you, populism is the source of many of our problems today.

adam, after this weekend im free so let me know when you guys are doing the next meet up (after this weekend).

the federal government has way over stepped its boundries in some very unbeneficial ways..to reexamine those boundries and reestabish them where they belong, is no bad thing.

as a side note: i really do like hillary for the most part, perhaps less since shes been senator than before; and while i understand why she hasn't, its hard for me to forgive her failure to recognise that she was wrong about iraq.

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Old 10-02-2007   #33
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just say "no" to corporate fuedalism.
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Old 10-02-2007   #34
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muffin IS an asshole. that i can get behind :P
but hes a well informed asshole and thats why i love him.
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Old 10-02-2007   #35
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maybe one should look into the comments one made and then try and look at them from the point of view of someone who does not share your beliefs, well then maybe we can all start to understand each other. but who wants that?
WE SHOULD BE DOING THAT ALWAYS!!!
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Old 10-02-2007   #36
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Old 10-02-2007   #37
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muffin is the master of all that is SDR.muffin is the master of all that is SDR.muffin is the master of all that is SDR.muffin is the master of all that is SDR.muffin is the master of all that is SDR.muffin is the master of all that is SDR.muffin is the master of all that is SDR.muffin is the master of all that is SDR.muffin is the master of all that is SDR.muffin is the master of all that is SDR.muffin is the master of all that is SDR.
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Starting flame wars is the activity of someone weak on debate.
ORRRRRR he could be a.) defending his point by pointing out something that supports it (ie: trying to show the use of opinion as a tool of argument) and/or b.) someone who has spent YEARS upon YEARS studying politics and has become jaded by both political actions and political debate, specifically online political debate. i'm not starting a flame war adam, i pointed out that you made an opinionated statement.

the irony of this whole thing is that the above quoted statment is also an opinion.

i never called ANYONE naive. if you can point out where i actually called an individual naive or pointed to a group of people as naive, i'd appreciate it. what i did say is that some of the comments in here, NONE OF WHICH I QUOTED or pointed out specifically, came off as very naive to me. i also stated that it was my opinion.

so please, someone, tell how i'm "weak at debate". am i an ass hole? fuck yes i am. it's in my nature to be so, ironically once again, the product of years of online debating. i don't discuss my political feelings. only about a handful of people on this board know how informed i am politically and where my political heart lies. i'll let all of you continue your discussion of ron paul without any further "uninformed" interuptions.

edit: oh, here is a fact tho, i love jess also.
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Old 10-02-2007   #38
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the other thing for me too is that I'm over voting for unrealistic candidates. I vote a lot of green party candidates for other offices. But not for president. If enough third party candidates are elected and begin to saturate other parts of the government, then eventually electing one as president may become a reality. But for now it's just not possible.Try and convince me all you want.. believe me I've been down that path before. But I'm a realist. And I accept that my ideas are not the popular ideas. All I can do is vote for the most realistic candidate that aligns with my ideas as closely as possible. Otherwise we run the risk of another Bush type getting into office.
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Old 10-02-2007   #39
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another fact - i love tony too

ot - holy crap, tony has achieved pill status!

edit: i think being realistic is very unpopular because it sounds like you are forgoing your morals for conformity. it's not. i think everyone should stand by their convictions, but you also have to live in the real world. i too have MANY unrealistic ideals about what america could be, but i also have to actually function in this america. do i like the two popular parties? of course i don't. here is the thig, i think you should be active in trying to change the minds of people and help them to make choices on their own(irony?), without influence of the cash monster that is modern media. however, sometimes you have to do what is the best that can be done. people like adam are very admirable and doing this, trying to get the word out and helping to maybe change one or two minds. in life, you have to be happy that you change the minds of two people sometimes...at least it's two more that may spread the word...
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Old 10-02-2007   #40
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the other thing for me too is that I'm over voting for unrealistic candidates. I vote a lot of green party candidates for other offices. But not for president. If enough third party candidates are elected and begin to saturate other parts of the government, then eventually electing one as president may become a reality. But for now it's just not possible.Try and convince me all you want.. believe me I've been down that path before. But I'm a realist. And I accept that my ideas are not the popular ideas. All I can do is vote for the most realistic candidate that aligns with my ideas as closely as possible. Otherwise we run the risk of another Bush type getting into office.
Working to get Ron Paul the Republican nomination won't change which Democrat they're going to shove down our throats. What is will do is help to prevent the Republican party from falling further into fascism. Realism is a method of preparing for the worst outcome. Realism is not conducive of defeatism.
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Old 10-02-2007   #41
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i never called ANYONE naive.
Not only did you call someone naive, you did it by suggesting it could be any one of us. Not to mention names of course, but one of you is naive. In fact, the most naive I've ever seen. Re-brand that how you want. What you consider the world's purest fact I may consider ignorant drivel. I would respect your opinion however.
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Old 10-02-2007   #42
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people like adam are very admirable and doing this, trying to get the word out and helping to maybe change one or two minds.

Actually last I counted it was around 14-15. I've been busy from my interwebs.

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Old 10-02-2007   #43
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Working to get Ron Paul the Republican nomination won't change which Democrat they're going to shove down our throats. What is will do is help to prevent the Republican party from falling further into fascism. Realism is a method of preparing for the worst outcome. Realism is not conducive of defeatism.
true. and we're talking primaries anyway. So vote your heart :P

If the race comes down to Ron Paul and either Obama or Hillary I'll be happy anyway.

I do believe Ron Paul would be a better Republican candidate than most of the others. But I still won't be voting for him. Not to mention as a registered democrat I believe at least in the primaries I'm only allowed to vote for a democrat..
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Old 10-02-2007   #44
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true. and we're talking primaries anyway. So vote your heart :P

If the race comes down to Ron Paul and either Obama or Hillary I'll be happy anyway.

I do believe Ron Paul would be a better Republican candidate that most of the others. But I still won't be voting for him.
It's cool but when the log cabins come knocking at your door don't come to me for help.

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Old 10-02-2007   #45
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ohhhh yeah and lulz we are pulling a fundraising shocker in a few days so stfu if you think he can't be elected. He might not be elected but he damn well can be.



You have no idea how big the movement is, and that's nothing compared to how big it's going to be in 3 months.

props for the banksy ref

...and i am not geting involved in this thread....
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Old 10-02-2007   #46
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sorry, what i'm about to say is my opinion based on years of being politically active - there are some of the most naive statements i've ever read in this thread.

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Not only did you call someone naive, you did it by suggesting it could be any one of us. Not to mention names of course, but one of you is naive. In fact, the most naive I've ever seen. Re-brand that how you want. What you consider the world's purest fact I may consider ignorant drivel. I would respect your opinion however.
really? where? cuz i'm reading it, and i don't see where i ever even infered that anyone was naive. a person can make naive statements without being naive themselves. i don't believe that statments form people define them, thusly i don't believe just because i (stated clearly as opinion) found a few comments naive that anyone here is naive at all. please do not put words in my mouth, or turn my words into something they clearly were not.

want an opinion again? putting words in people's mouths or presenting infered details as facts is the sign of a weak debator. sorry, but just because you can spout facts does not mean you are skilled in the art of debate. i'm not handing down any judgement here, but instead making a comment of fact. so, before you start to say "well, you said we aren't good debators", i'm not. i'm finding that i have to make clear things because of the level of inference in online debate.

oh, and i stand by my comments.
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Old 10-02-2007   #47
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Oh and this thread got way to serious to be in misc. posts....

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Someone should move it....
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Old 10-02-2007   #48
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there are some of the most naive statements i've ever read in this thread.
*shrug*

Like I said, re-brand that all you want the statement is fairly clear. But ok, I will grant you that in one context it can be considered an attack on the anonymous statements in question and not in the person who you may or may not simply consider misinformed as opposed to naive.
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Old 10-02-2007   #49
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*shrug*

Like I said, re-brand that all you want the statement is fairly clear. But ok, I will grant you that in one context it can be considered an attack on the anonymous statements in question and not in the person who you may or may not simply consider misinformed as opposed to naive.
actually YOU are re-branding my shit. not me. whatever, this is effing bs anyways...who fucking cares? want me to call you all naive so you can be right? YOU ARE ALL NAIVE. except jess, she's never naive. there...now you can be right and win.
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Old 10-02-2007   #50
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actually YOU are re-branding my shit. not me. whatever, this is effing bs anyways...who fucking cares? want me to call you all naive so you can be right? YOU ARE ALL NAIVE. except jess, she's never naive. there...now you can be right and win.
I don't want to win something that cannot be won. I never said you claimed everyone was naive. If you want to make claims without merit that's fine but you shouldn't get upset when you've provided no clarification to your generalization. Acting like you're being attacked after attacking someone's beliefs without contributing your own doesn't help anything.
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